Source: Murray Darling Basin Authority
ANDREW CLENNELL: Well, joining me live from Sydney is Education Minister Jason Clare. Jason Clare might start with you on this Barnaby Joyce defection.
JASON CLARE, MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: Good morning, mate.
CLENNELL: What would you think of him running for One Nation or even leading One Nation?
CLARE: Oh, let’s wait and see. You know, if Barnaby’s retiring, can I wish him well and his family well. Politics is a tough old business and we’ve seen that. Barnaby and I have known each other for a very, very long time. We consider each other mates. Thank God there were no iPhones in the early 2000s, otherwise there’d be some pretty shocking footage of the two of us singing karaoke together. But if he’s retiring, let me wish him well. Obviously, not just the National Party, but the Liberal Party too, are in a world of pain here at the moment. They need to work out whether they want to be Howard or Hanson. They’ll eventually work this out. They always do. The job of the Labor Party, the job of the Government is to ignore all of this and just focus on our job of governing Australia and making decisions in the national interest.
CLENNELL: Do you think it’s a tenable situation for Barnaby Joyce to stay in the National’s party room while he’s flirting with going to One Nation?
CLARE: Mate, that’s not a question for me. That’s a question for David and for Barnaby. They’ll make those decisions. My job, our job, is to focus on Australians and do our job. Make the decisions like the ones that I’ve announced just in the last 24 hours or so in education that are focused on Australian parents and Australian children.
CLENNELL: I’ll get to them Jason Clare, but I need to ask you about this White House visit of the Prime Minister first. It’s been a while coming. How are you expecting it to go?
CLARE: I think it’ll go very well. I think it’ll be a very positive meeting. You know, the fact is, Australia and America have been great mates for a very long time. Through thick and thin, we’ve worked together and fought together, what, more than 100 years? And the relationship between our two countries is built on shared values, common interests. Different presidents and Prime Ministers of different political parties have worked together over a long, long period of time. I don’t think this will be any different. You’ll have a bird’s eye view of it, mate. I think you’re on the plane with the PM today. You’ll be in the room where it all happens. But I’m very confident that this will be a good meeting.
CLENNELL: What can you tell us about the critical minerals deal Australia is looking to strike with the US.
CLARE: Not much, I don’t know much about it. Even if I did, I probably couldn’t tell you. But as you know, they’re called critical minerals for a reason. They’re the sorts of things, along with rare earths that you need for everything from a mobile phone to an electric car or for military weapons, for defence equipment. These are important. It’s why the world wants them and we’ve got them. We want to work with likeminded countries around the world to help to extract them and refine them and process them. I think Don was on the show last week and he was talking about the work that we’re doing with the EU on that and the work he’s doing with the US. We want to work closely with the US on this.
CLENNELL: You do have an interest as Education Minister with the trading relationship with China, however. Do you think any such agreement could endanger that relationship?
CLARE: I don’t think so. You know, we’re in favour of free and fair trade. China is our biggest trading partner. The US is our greatest and most important ally. A big part of our responsibility as a mature government is to work with both nations in Australia’s interest.
CLENNELL: What should Australians think about the Government handing over $1 billion here and there for the AUKUS agreement?
CLARE: Well, this is again in Australia’s interest, national security, the security of the nation. There’s nothing more important than that. But AUKUS is a deal which is not just in Australia’s interest, it’s in America’s interest as well. It’s in the interest of the Poms. That’s why in the review that the UK government did, they reached the conclusion that it was in their interests and I’m pretty confident that the US will find the same. Three nations working together on national security, I think is in the interest of all of us.
CLENNELL: Donald Trump does have a crack at Anthony Albanese here. Is it a problem for the PM or perhaps not? Given the attitude to Mr Trump from some parts of the Australian electorate.
CLARE: I doubt that’s a problem. I think most Australians understand the importance of the relationship between America and Australia, our most important ally. America and Australia aren’t the same. We’re not the same countries. We’ve got different views on different things. Medicare, gun laws are good examples of that. But we’ve got more in common than we have that separates us or divides us. We’re two countries based on the same essential values, the same focus on liberal democracy, the same interests in the world. And it’s those sorts of values and those sorts of interests that will drive the conversation and the relationship between President Trump and Prime Minister Albanese.
CLENNELL: I see your former boss from a way back, Bob Carr, suggested Anthony Albanese should suck up to Donald Trump. Do you think that’s good advice?
CLARE: It’s not about that. It’s about having a mature, professional relationship, working on areas where you can agree. And there is so much where Australia and America can work together.
CLENNELL: I wanted to ask now about the superannuation tax back down by Jim Chalmers during the week being made to push it out when the PM was on leave. It’s a bit humiliating for the Treasurer, isn’t it?
CLARE: No, this is really about making the superannuation system, universal superannuation, something the Labor Party is incredibly proud to have created, making that system better and fairer than it is today. This decision means that I think about 1.3 million Aussies will retire with more super because of this decision than they otherwise would. And a couple of thousand Australians that are sitting on a mountain of money, more than $10 million in their super, will have their concessions reduced a bit. So, more Aussies retiring with more and it’s better for the budget. I think it’s a good policy outcome.
CLENNELL: Now, you’ve announced a number of measures out of the Education Ministers meeting, as you alluded to. One of them is to address bullying and a suggestion teachers have to act on it within 48 hours. How is that going to be enforced? How do you intend to make a real difference to bullying there?
CLARE: Well, the key here is what different state governments around the country do to help us to implement this. They run the schools, they employ the teachers. But what parents are telling us is the faster you act, the better. If you can act in the first one or two days after a complaint’s made, then you can nip this in the bud and you can really make a difference. You know, just to, I guess, give people watching a bit of perspective. Somebody said to me the other day, look, shouldn’t kids just harden up a little bit? Take a spoonful of cement. I’ve got to tell you, mate, bullying today isn’t what it was when we were at school in the 80s or the 70s, or the 90s. It’s different today. And that’s partly because of the Internet. It’s not just people yelling at each other in the playground or stealing lunch money. It’s what people are writing and saying and posting online, day or night. Everybody can see it. And artificial intelligence makes this even worse. It supercharges all of this. We’ve seen that with people cutting and pasting faces, putting it on naked bodies and then sending that round to kids at school. And on Friday, I learned – I didn’t know this before, but it terrifies me. We heard that artificial intelligence or AI chatbots are now bullying kids as well, telling them they’re losers, telling them to kill themselves. There’s been examples overseas of kids killing themselves because of this. So, this is no longer just kids bullying kids, this is AI bullying kids. And we’re seeing in the most heartbreaking, awful, terrifying circumstances, kids taking their own lives. So, if we can act earlier, that will help. If we can give better tools for teachers, that’ll help as well. But I’m not naive to think that you can end this entirely. There’s always been bullies, there always will be, there’ll always be bullying in schools, and it’s happening outside of schools as well. But schools are places where we can take some action and that’s what this is about.
CLENNELL: What forums are these occurring in, the so-called AI bullying? Is it the social media apps that you’re looking to ban under 16s on, or is it through messaging services as well, which you’re not banning?
CLARE: Yeah, it’s – so, it’s both. The two big ones at the moment are TikTok and Snapchat. The eSafety Commissioner briefed us on this on Friday when Education Ministers met. She said they’re the two big ones where a lot of online bullying is happening at the moment. And so the action that we’re taking that starts on 10th December will help a lot of young people there. But it’s not just there, it’s on messaging services as well. It’s on those AI chatbots that I described as well. So, the action that we’re taking to delay people who are under the age of 16 accessing social media until they’re a bit older is going to help here. But it’s not the only thing that we need to do. And that’s why, based on the evidence, we’re saying that if schools act earlier, then there’s more that we can do to help young people that are impacted by this. It affects not just their mental health, but it can also affect how they’re going at school. If you’re being bullied at school, you’re more likely to fall behind at school and you’re also more likely not to turn up to school at all.
CLENNELL: What impacts do you think the social media ban will have for kids who are now between 12 and 16 and use the apps? Does the government have any strategies for how to wean teenagers off this addiction and replace it with activities? Or is it all down to parents to deal with?
CLARE: No, it’s not down to parents at all. I’m one of those parents. My big guy’s a little bit younger than that. But I get how difficult this is for parents right now. The acid needs to be put on the companies, not parents. Parents are grappling with this right now with young people on social media. The tech companies know who is using, who are using their platforms. They are able to assure themselves of their age and they can take action to deactivate those accounts. Look, again, mate, I’m not naive. There’s always going to be young people who get around this. There’s young people who drink grog today who are under the age of 18, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have laws that say that you can’t sell alcohol to people under the age of 18. And the same will be the case here. There’ll be young people that’ll attempt to get around it.
CLENNELL: Sure.
CLARE: But instead of putting the pressure on –
CLENNELL: I guess my question, Jason Clare is, does the Government have any advice once it implements the ban, to parents of this aged teenager, on how to communicate it and cop any backlash in relation to it?
CLARE: Yeah, yeah, it’s a good question. If you’re a mum and a dad, a mum or a dad, you’re going to be wanting that sort of information. And Anika Wells and the eSafety Commissioner, Julie Inman Grant, are producing and preparing materials along with the advertising campaign which I think kicks off this weekend to support mums and dads, but not just parents, schools as well. And they provided us with some of the material they’re going to be providing to principals and teachers over the next few weeks. Because this is a big change. It’s huge. And it’s really going to impact, in particular, the young people you spoke about who are under 16 and are using social media at the moment will see the impact not just at home, but will see it in our schools as well. But I think if you ask most people, they’ll say, look, this is in the public interest, this is going to help our young people. And I also think if you ask people who are 16 and 17, maybe, rather than people who are 14 and 15 today, they’ll say this is a good thing, too. That the algorithms that social media use now are more aggressive and more sophisticated today than they were even a couple of years ago. And it can just suck kids into a hole that they can’t get out of, doom scrolling for hours, just keep feeding them the same information and it’s not helping our kids, that’s for sure. That’s why I suspect Australia won’t be the only country that does this.
CLENNELL: A recent report had more than half of the students, more than 50 per cent of the students of Sydney University, one of the most prestigious sandstone universities in Australia, being international students. How is this acceptable? What are you going to do about it?
CLARE: Well, international education is important for Australia. It helps, it provides investment in Australia, money to Australian businesses. It’s also valuable because if international students come to Australia and fall in love with Australia, they’ll take that love for Australia back home with them. And in the world we live in, that’s important. But there’s nothing more important for Australian universities than educating Australians. That’s why we’ve made it very clear that we’ve got to set international student numbers at sustainable levels. We reduced them last year. We want to make sure that growth is done in a managed way, and you can see that through the allocations that we made this week, which are focused at regional universities. We don’t want it just to be the big universities that benefit from international students, but smaller regional universities that benefit as well.
CLENNELL: Are you going to bring down that number? Is it your intention for Sydney University to have more than 50 per cent of students being local students?
CLARE: Well, it should be more than 50 per cent of students at universities being local students. It’s one of the reasons why we didn’t allocate more international student numbers to Sydney University. But it’s also because we’ve said to universities, if you want additional international students allocated to your universities, then we need to see evidence of two things. One, that you’re building more housing because we need more housing. But two, that you’re diversifying so that international students aren’t just coming from one country, but they’re coming from a number of different countries around the world. In particular Southeast Asia, which is where Australia is doing a lot of work to build strong relationships. You mentioned the trip that the Prime Minister is making to the United States, but shortly thereafter he’ll be at the ASEAN meeting in Malaysia and the APEC meeting. The work that Australia does with our Asian neighbours is critical here, and the work that we do in international education to make sure that students are coming from a number of different countries is very important as well.
CLENNELL: Just finally and briefly, you’ve now got Julian Leeser as your Opposition opponent. He looks like he’s going to concentrate on the issue of anti-Semitism on campuses. Are you planning more measures to address that?
CLARE: Well, can I just say, I’ve got a lot of respect for Julian Leeser. We’ve worked together in different areas on different things and he’s a fine parliamentarian. Likewise, Jonathan Duniam, who was in the portfolio briefly before Julian, and I think Jono’s on the program next, is a great human being, a very smart person who lent his intellect to this portfolio area. So, I’m looking forward to working with Julian. The fact is anti-Semitism is a poison. And we’ve seen plenty of evidence of that – in the lifetime of our grandparents we’ve seen what it can do – but only in the last few weeks in the UK. I’ve made it very, very clear to Vice-Chancellors that their top priority must be to implement their codes of conduct to make sure that students are safe. But not only that, I’ve made the decision and had the Parliament agree to establish a National Student Ombudsman. So, there is a proper independent complaint system when the system lets them down. And in addition to that, I formed the view that the tertiary education regulator, TEQSA, doesn’t have the powers that it needs to be able to act where universities aren’t acting in the public good. And that’s why there’s work going on right now on the tools that TEQSA needs to be able to act here and elsewhere, where university governance isn’t up to scratch. At the moment they basically have a sledgehammer in one hand, they can shut a university down, or a feather where they can tell them that they’re not doing the right thing. They need better tools here to be able to act. And I’m hoping that I’ll be able to bring forward legislation to improve and strengthen the powers of the tertiary education regulator next year.
CLENNELL: Jason Clare, thanks so much for your time.